more eve vs. atitd.

[solipsistnation]

Eve is very stat-driven. You make a character with stats, and you have skills, and your character can study skills when you're not logged in (which is admittedly pretty cool). But in the end, unless I'm missing something important, combat is decided by skills and who has a better loadout on their ship, and mining efficiency is decided by who has better gear and skills, and so on. Making tons of money is decided by who plays the market better, or who has better gear for piracy, or whatever. Eve players, is this correct?

I actually don't enjoy this sort of thing much at all. Somebody actually pointed this out as an advantage-- combat isn't a twitchfest (which is good), but then again, it's also not really a test of anything but how long you've been playing and how much money you have to throw into gear.

As a counterpoint, let me talk about gemcutting in ATITD.

In Egypt, cuttable gems come from water mines. They're not a common resource, and some of the 4 or 5 types are very valuable as trade goods. There are garnets, amethysts, turquoise, and so on, and each of them is used for different things. A flax gin (an automated flax processing machine) requires two turquoise, Full Eye cut. A lockbox for another test requires 4 different gems cut into eyelets. A megalopolis requires a bunch of bridge cut turquoise, a rare and frustrating cut. The mega I helped with last required 36 of them, and I burned over 200 gems getting most of those (and that's a good ratio-- more typically, it's closer to 1 bridge from 20 or 30 gems). There are lots of cuts, lots of things that need cuts, and only a few people who can cut gems at all.

See, gemcutting is a PLAYER skill. To cut a gem, you load it onto a gemcutting table, which presents you with a rough cube, into which random flaws are sunk. You, the player, must rotate the gem in 3 dimensions, identify the bits that look like the cut you want to make, and then use 3 cutting wheels (more like sanding wheels) to reduce the gem to just the bits you want. It's very challenging, especially since some cuts require non-intuitive cutting techniques (based more or less on how the facets get rounded off when you cut at an angle) and some cuts require large planes of unflawed gem, or flaws in just the right places, and so on. Not all gems can make all cuts, so it's useful for the gemcutter to be able to see when a gem isn't going to do what he (or she) wants and cut it into something else and thus not waste a rare and valuable cuttable gem. You may not get a bridge, for example, but if you can get an eyelet out of it it's usually worth the time.

There are only a handful of people who are any good at this. I've considered myself a sort of mid-level gemcutter for most of my career, but after feedback on my gemcutting on the last megalopolis I helped with, I've come to realize that I'm actually pretty good at it-- possibly one of the best gemcutters in the game, although there are certainly people whose skills I admire and aspire to match.

Gemcutting is far from the only player skill in Egypt, either. There's glassblowing (which is not only complex but also timed and heavy on the resources, especially if you fail) and blacksmithing (in which you can at least recover the materials if you decide you aren't going to get good results). There is paint-mixing, chemistry, breeding flowers, and so on. So much of the game is based around what players actually take the time to practice and DO, not just on numbers. There are a few numbers involved, but mostly higher stats are rewards and make things a little easier or faster. Overall, Egyptian skills are based on what the player does. Heck, once a player can get the gemcutting skill (which is pretty much a flag: "You have been taught to cut gems. Now go do it.") anyone can cut them. A talented newbie could conceivably cut gems as well as somebody who's been cutting them for months or years. No numbers, no, "You need Gemcutting III to make that cut," just you, a gem, and some cutting wheels.

So, Eve veterans, are there player skills involved, or is my impression of the game correct?

I have a few other thoughts-- one is that there doesn't seem to be any player avatar in Eve. It's very abstract-- you might as well be a brain in a jar flying a ship, and you can't even paint your ship or write your name on it or anything. It makes it harder to identify with the character, and less immersive. Even in bases, you get a nice shot of your ship floating in a docking bay (unless you disable that part).

I DO like that it's a huge universe. I like exploring, and I like finding random stuff out in the middle of nowhere (Egypt is good for that). I like the floating debris around various encounters-- a flashing "WELCOME" sign with some letters shot off and so on.

I dunno. I guess it's not for me. I'm still going to play out the tutorial missions and see how they end up, but as of now it's really not grabbing me.

Comments

[blackcoat.livejournal.com]

You are spot on with your assessment of EVE.

It's basically an MMO that puts to work that MBA you went and got. One of the best players that I know is a CPA. It's ENTIRELY a numbers game to him. He runs a mining/manufacturing concern, in which he flies his mining barge out somewhere, starts the automining, and sits back with a book/hangs out with his wife/does chores/uses his laptop to get real work done/whatever. Over the course of a weekend, he will amass enough raw materials that he can buy/sell what he needs to build a workweeks worth of ships. He will then set up a couple of manufacturing queues on sunday night, rejigger his training, if need be, and then start again the next weekend.


He was able to, when I started playing (I've since gotten bored) toss me 500KISK, and a handful of blueprints without really noticing the drop in the bucket. This type of game is just not fun for me. It's like playing flight sim and turning on the autopilot.

[purple-terror.livejournal.com]

You're not looking for a *game* you're looking for a hobby. :-P

Yes, like almost every other MMO out there, it's based on numbers. No, that's not the end-all-be-all of the game: an dumb player with more skill points can quite often be popped by a younger, smarter player, and nevermind all of the real-world skills required in keeping various bits of industry and alliances running.

But if you want it (or another game) to be like ATITD, I suspect that you'll be left wanting.

[solipsistnation.livejournal.com]

Well, I'm looking for something. I dunno. I guess this is why I haven't really gotten into any MMOs but ATITD...

It's probably just as well. 8)

[purple-terror.livejournal.com]

To be fair, ATITD does sound really, really cool. But MMOs tend to suck the life and time right outta ya, so if you're looking for something like ATITD but different... well, how's that watch thing coming along? ;-)

[solipsistnation.livejournal.com]

Slowly. 8)

Plus I don't get to get in arguments about who should be allowed to ban people from my watches. Heh.

[solipsistnation.livejournal.com]

Psst. 24 hour free trial. New telling starting in a couple of months. You could start playing now, get some mad skillz going, and then be ready when Tale 4 starts. You know you want to.

[purple-terror.livejournal.com]

Between EVE, work (clusters ahoy, maybe a move to mysql-y stuff) and possibly a new gf, I don't think I need yet another time sink. But if I get bored of EVE, I'll keep it in mind. :-)

[solipsistnation.livejournal.com]

If you want to give it a try, you know my name in game. Leave me a /chat and I'll show you around and give you a kickstart so you don't have to mess around with the lame buildings for very long...

[kittenexploring.livejournal.com]

Potential partners can be a real killer for EVE time. We've lost some of our best people to that affliction. Fortunately a large part of my alliance are in long term relationships and have children. Apart from the occasional mid-op break to tend to sick children they're far more reliable.

[komos.livejournal.com]

You're partially correct. On some level, EvE is an enormous spreadsheet with pretty graphics laid on top of it, and all things being equal, a character with better skills and a ship mounting advanced equipment will probably school a lesser skilled character with a type 1 loadout.

That said, things are rarely equal, and there is a lot to be said for a well organized force led by a skilled fleet commander and piloted by players who are infinitely familiar with their ships. The skills and experience reflected are not going to be recorded in the spreadsheet and there probably won't be a finished product that the characters can hold up, but they make the difference between a successful fleet and one that just shows up.

You're just not going to see this level of play in the tutorials. Consider, though, in ATITD, it takes a fair investment in skills and equipment to engage in something like gemcutting. At the base levels of the game, you end up spending a lot of time making bricks and boards and watching your tools for making them break repeatedly... and you never really stop grinding bricks and boards and charcoal and whatever. Eventually, you obtain better technologies that make the grinding easier, but that element of the game is still there.

My initial impression of EvE was also one where I noted all the shortcomings. Combat seemed to be all about orbiting in optimal range and hoping you could dish out more damage than you took. Mining was something that is best done afk. Etc. Etc. You can play at that level and be wildly successful, but it's the rough equivalent of spending all of your time in ATITD burning charcoal. Yes, everyone needs it and you can trade it for whatever else you need, but there are huge swaths of the game that you're missing.

[solipsistnation.livejournal.com]

Heh, okay. I see what you mean. I just, I dunno, wah wah not ATITD. 8)

I'm still going to play through the tutorials, anyway, but I think it's not really something I'm going to get into.

[komos.livejournal.com]

Which is fair. FWIW, I think ATITD is a much more craft-oriented game and is appealing because so many of the crafts are personalized. There's a certain artistry that comes from learning the interface well enough to manipulate it into in-game master-works that you will never find in EvE -or really, anywhere else.

On the other hand, I also think that ATITD is harder just to pick up and play casually. My impression in both T2 and T3 was that you really needed to start at the beginning of the tale to remain in parity with the other players, and even then, if you weren't constantly on, you were just going to fall behind. Some friends and I gave it a go at the beginning of T3, but we missed the great raeli oven rush, and no amount of building and improvement could keep more advanced players from parking things in our yard... and we were a LONG ways out of any of the city centers. I love the game, but it started to feel like work and repeatedly waking up to machinery, mines, or test widgets parked outside of our compounds was a real drag.

[solipsistnation.livejournal.com]

Heh. The raeli rush has met the raeli backlash, and a law has been passed so that raeli ovens can be made semi-public like mines. There are now loads of raelis that anyone can use (including mine), and lots of people trading tiles...

The whole "people building stuff in your yard" problem has also died down some since most of the major metals became available in enough places that people aren't freaking out about them any more. Plus, there were some big noisy arguments and DPs were brought in and so on. Mostly these days people are getting into finishing up the last few tests as they're released and opening up automation and some other techs in anticipation of monuments and stuff. There's been some big plot stuff related to the plague from a while back, and explosives and more advanced chemistry are out there, which have all led to bonus drama and the Karnak chariot stop being blown up. All kinds of excitement, really...

[dariusk.livejournal.com]

EVE is adding more content in the future where you do have a 3D avatar, but only on neutral space stations where it's used mostly as a chatting/trading social type avatar.

[komos.livejournal.com]

I thought there were plans for planetside as well?

[dariusk.livejournal.com]

That's entirely possible, the last news I heard was about 6 months ago.

[solipsistnation.livejournal.com]

Running around on planets would be pretty cool...

[hano.livejournal.com]

I think Eve's the greatest game ever created, but even so, it's not for everyone. The learning curve is more a sheer cliff face and it'll be at least 3 months before you're able to even contemplate proper PvP. which is a shame cos it's the hard core PvP that's the real heart of it. They've just introduced something called 'Faction Warfare' which afaik is an attempt to create a bridge between the NPC/Empire based aspects of the game and the large player controlled Alliances that dominate 0.0 space where, as far as I'm concerned, the *real* game happens.
Sounds like you want a game very much like ATITD, in which case Eve probably isn't for you.
Death to BoB, GS and long live the NC....
(Speaking of which, Martin, are you back in game yet?)

[kittenexploring.livejournal.com]

I'm back. It's pretty quiet for U'K at the moment with people heading off to try FW and a lot of the Europeans going outside to blink at the bright ball of light in the sky. Which leaves us with continual small scale roaming gang action in Curse - our holiday retreat in between campaigns.

[agthorr.livejournal.com]

I played EVE for a few months, but dropped out due to not having enough time to actually play. On the other hand, one of my real-life friends is "Friedrich Psitalon", who for a time was running one of the largest alliances in EVE. More recently he and his corp ("FOOM") have been specializing in factional warfare and turning over a lot of applecarts with some very creative tactics.


But in the end, unless I'm missing something important, combat is decided by skills and who has a better loadout on their ship, and mining efficiency is decided by who has better gear and skills, and so on. Making tons of money is decided by who plays the market better, or who has better gear for piracy, or whatever. Eve players, is this correct?

Yes and no. Certainly, combat can be decided by skills or a better ship loadout, and you can certainly make money by playing the market better or by having better gear for pirate. But they're not the only ways.

However, there is quite a bit of strategy, if that's your angle. Most of the strategy isn't at the lone-player level, though. The strategy is (for example) in organizing a group of players with complementary ship builds and accomplishing tasks together. Get involved with some other players and the game will be a lot more fun. EVE rewards collaboration, leadership, and creativity.

FWIW, I, too, have heard good things about the EVE University corp.

[purple-terror.livejournal.com]

Holy shit, you know Fried?!?! Fucking hell, it's a small world. I joined FOOM about 3-4 months ago, see...

[agthorr.livejournal.com]

Yeah, my wife was in 7th grade with him. :-) We get together with him and his wife and play board games every couple weeks.

What's your handle on EVE?

[purple-terror.livejournal.com]

Very cool. I like Fried immensely - very smart and charismatic, plus he's got that cuckoo clock!

Moto Prime is my main in FOOM; Mr Slippery is my indy alt.

[kittenexploring.livejournal.com]

Deciding when to shoot people, shooting people, picking markets and manipulating markets are the biggest areas for use of player skill.

The most deadly ship setups with heaps of skill and money invested are still only better than similar, but cheaper ships, not unbeatable. Even if the new character doesn't have the right setup to beat them, more people will be enough to defeat them. You can invest a great deal of money into rare items and ships to make very deadly setups. You will then die very fast to people who want to kill your expensive ship unless you have the player skill to correctly choose when to engage and when to run.

Industry has a large component of getting the right skills and equipment to shave off the last few fractions of a percent in costs - which everyone can do equally well. However choosing what to make, what to buy and where to sell are very important. Many people who you would hope know what they're doing based on RL skills ... don't. It's common for people to spend hours mining, use the minerals to make an object then sell the object for less than they could sell the minerals for. CEOs, CFOs, MBAs, accountants, economists, 12 year olds - all make a lot of mistakes with basic business decisions.

I've been playing for 3 years but my shooting people experience is limited and it shows. I die easily despite all the character's skill points and shiny ships.